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KeiththeKoach

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Just watched Federer murder Roddick at the Australian Open.  Roddick was supposed to be closing in on Roger as a result of coaching by Jimmy Connors and it certainly seemed that way before this match.  His form of late has been first class BUT all the coaching on earth cannot produce the talent that is inherent in Roger Federer. 

 

Coaching manufactures technique and produces many clones but real talent is extremely rare.  I'm not a tennis fan but watching Federer is as stimulating as watching Maradonna.

JohnR

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Reply with quote  #2 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeiththeKoach
I'm not a tennis fan but watching Federer is as stimulating as watching Maradonna.

For a moment there I read "Madonna" and thought you had veered off on a different track!

 

Federer is Zidane. You are right, you can't coach that. On the other hand, Federer with no youth coach at all would be just another athletic guy who became king of the local park-district courts.

KeiththeKoach

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Reply with quote  #3 

Yes, John, even great talent benefits from good coaching but in the end it is the player's talent that is most important.  Coaching is really a background role rather than the picture we get of sideline coaching in the EPL. As coaches of the young we need to be very aware that our requirements of the player in search of  coaching success do not stifle or dull the edge of that talent.

 

 

 

 

Maddog

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KTK you bring up a point that many in the US will not understand. All players benefit from good coaching but it is the individual that must have natural talent, the heart & desire to succeed. Few youth coaches will ever get a chance to work with one player like this, the 1 in 1000 that makes it to the top of the profession. Some may be fortunate to work with one or two during their careers that will become solid journeymen players. So many in the US see very vanilla players that have pace, some skill and parents that fund the playing experience if not mold it and THINK these are the great players, sorry folks just not the case. As I look at the players in this states top division I see one or two that might have the fire, and natural talent, many more that lack the natural talent have decent coaching and think they are the cat's meow.

The phrase I love when coaches are selling a program to a marginal players parents " it's not about playing time it's about the training he/she receives" what a load of BS. Soccer players play because they enjoy the game no one likes hard training and no player likes hard training and no playing. In the US the pleasure has long been taken from the game for many, and the cost make it prohibitive for way too many.

WillieB

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Reply with quote  #5 

Keith, I agree that natural talent is something that comes from within, you either have it or you don't.

 

As coaches we can help players improve their skills, technique decision making process etc.  and we can help them improve however i don't believe that we can make them stars.

 

One thing many of us are capable of doing though is ruining a player, stiffling their talent and stopping them from realising their full potential.  As an example how many of us FORCE players to pass, pass, pass?  How many of us tell the "ball-hog" he'd better start passing the ball?  How many of us take away the individuality from the player becase we are too ficussed on the results?

 

 


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mbiyenm

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Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog

...The phrase I love when coaches are selling a program to a marginal players parents " it's not about playing time it's about the training he/she receives" what a load of BS...

The actual phrase is "you pay for training and you earn playing time".

MrSoccer

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Reply with quote  #7 

"How many of us tell the "ball-hog" he'd better start passing the ball"

 

There are two kinds of ball hogs the one that always try to beat people 1 v 1 and hardly ever succeeds and the ones that most of the time succeeds.

 

The one I want to pass is the one that hardly ever succeeds.

 

--------------

 

"How many of us take away the individuality from the player becase we are too ficussed on the results?"

 

We must be different I love to see a player do something amazing that I never expected and never taught him and change the game for the better. What is better then seeing something like that even if an opponent does it.


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WillieB

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Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSoccer

"How many of us tell the "ball-hog" he'd better start passing the ball"

 

There are two kinds of ball hogs the one that always try to beat people 1 v 1 and hardly ever succeeds and the ones that most of the time succeeds.

 

The one I want to pass is the one that hardly ever succeeds.

 

Fair point, I meant the one who can beat opponents however how can the one who hardly ever succeeds get any better if he isn't allowed to do it.

 

--------------

 

"How many of us take away the individuality from the player becase we are too focussed on the results?"

 

We must be different I love to see a player do something amazing that I never expected and never taught him and change the game for the better. What is better then seeing something like that even if an opponent does it.

 

I don't think we are different, I also love to see players do somethinmg different.  I try to allow each player to retain their individuality.  I believe that as far as individual development is concerened the player is more important than the team, especially at the younger ages.

 

 

 


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coachkev

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Reply with quote  #9 

I've said it before:

"TALENT DOES WHAT IT CAN - GENIUS DOES WHAT IT MUST"

 

Even genius needs coaching, if only to know what NOT to do!

tericson

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Reply with quote  #10 

Quote:

There are two kinds of ball hogs the one that always try to beat people 1 v 1 and hardly ever succeeds and the ones that most of the time succeeds.

 

The one I want to pass is the one that hardly ever succeeds.

 

So if we make that kid pass won't he fail to develop the skills required to take players on?  Aren't you sacrificing his development so that someone else can take players on?

 

I think every kid should learn where its appropriate to dribble and when its best to pass.   The kid that can take players on at will should recognize when its in his best interest to move the ball along as much as the kid that needs to beat the last defender instead of holding the ball up for the 'dribbling specialist' to catch up to him.  I think every kid should be given some latitude to 'experiment' even if they aren't successful at it. Otherwise you'll end up with a team of a few that 'can' and a few that 'can't'. Why not develop an entire team that can?

MrSoccer

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Reply with quote  #11 

We all watch a lot of pro soccer right.

 

Can everyone playing really beat people 1 v 1 on their own? No, but they can still play professionally.They just need help from team mates to beat people.


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EricMcGrath

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tericson

Quote:

There are two kinds of ball hogs the one that always try to beat people 1 v 1 and hardly ever succeeds and the ones that most of the time succeeds.

 

The one I want to pass is the one that hardly ever succeeds.

 

So if we make that kid pass won't he fail to develop the skills required to take players on?  Aren't you sacrificing his development so that someone else can take players on?

 

I think every kid should learn where its appropriate to dribble and when its best to pass.   The kid that can take players on at will should recognize when its in his best interest to move the ball along as much as the kid that needs to beat the last defender instead of holding the ball up for the 'dribbling specialist' to catch up to him.  I think every kid should be given some latitude to 'experiment' even if they aren't successful at it. Otherwise you'll end up with a team of a few that 'can' and a few that 'can't'. Why not develop an entire team that can?

 

because its nigh on impossible

 

different people have different technical capabilities, no matter how hard they try, different tactical visions of the game, different physiological and psychological make-up

 

my personal opinion is that if we don't develop players to be as strong as they can be within a team framework, then we are failing them. yes, that means developing and promoting their strengths. it also means having them work on their weaknesses. but at no point should we ever expect johnny to be able to do what billy is a natural at. if john terry hadn't been groomed as a defensive player, he wouldn't be the rock of chelsea's defense right now.

 

 

scoachd

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog

KTK you bring up a point that many in the US will not understand. All players benefit from good coaching but it is the individual that must have natural talent, the heart & desire to succeed. Few youth coaches will ever get a chance to work with one player like this, the 1 in 1000 that makes it to the top of the profession. Some may be fortunate to work with one or two during their careers that will become solid journeymen players. So many in the US see very vanilla players that have pace, some skill and parents that fund the playing experience if not mold it and THINK these are the great players, sorry folks just not the case. As I look at the players in this states top division I see one or two that might have the fire, and natural talent, many more that lack the natural talent have decent coaching and think they are the cat's meow.

The phrase I love when coaches are selling a program to a marginal players parents " it's not about playing time it's about the training he/she receives" what a load of BS. Soccer players play because they enjoy the game no one likes hard training and no player likes hard training and no playing. In the US the pleasure has long been taken from the game for many, and the cost make it prohibitive for way too many.

Do you think parent in the US are unique in the rose colored view of their children?  Do you think its unique to soccer?  Ever watch Hoop dreams?

 

With regard to game time, do you really think kids with transcendent talent spend much time sitting on any teams bench?  Around here there are a ton of different places to play - kids could play in 5-7 different leagues if they have time (and many play in 2 or 3).  Many others play in daily in school.  But there are few places with good training.  We get kids that want to come to train that aren't even good enough to make the team, let alone play significant minutes in a teams game. 

AFB

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Reply with quote  #14 

The key to true success lies in knowing the possible, knowing the potential.

 

Not the probable, which means means likely, but the possible potential of a player.

 

What is possible lies solely within the player, and even that is not totally within their control.

 

As a coach we help the player realize what is possible by speeding the process, showing the player superior alternatives to what is otherwise "natural" to the player.  We guide them with our knowledge so the time it took others to master a technique, or even discover the skill in the first place, is shortened.

 

Not all players are alike.  Some have far superior balance.  Some are blessed genetically with greater fast twitch muscles and therefore quicker.  Some develop synapses in the brain and in local nerve nodes allowing for faster reactions, quicker perception, better spacial understanding and more accurate thought.

 

The closer you approach greatness, the more you approach the extremes, the statistical outliers.  These are people who possess not just one, but many of the physical and mental attributes needed for success.  For these, more than others, more of certain skills are possible. 

 

It takes time to train some skills to a very high level of proficiency in any single skill.  The time it takes again varies by individual.  Time used to train for some skills is lost for use in training on others.  Some abilities also cancel out potentials in other abilities.  For example, if you train for explosiveness, to increase the amount and reaction of fast twitch muscle fiber, you reduce the amount of slow twitch muscle fiber, and thus endurance.  The reverse is also true, which is why training for marathons is not beneficial for soccer players.

 

All this means you cannot by coaching alone achieve greatness.  You cannot take a random person and state you will turn them into a Maradona, a Pele, a Best, with any certainty.  If you are a good coach you can make them better, but you cannot improve them beyond what it is possible for them to be.

 

The willingness to train hard exists in the player.  So does the potential to be lazy.  A coach can motivate and help the player; but motivation means to convince, which in this case can only mean by appealing to a desire that was already in the player.  As a coach you may nurture that desire and help it grow, or you may choke it and starve it, but you never created it.

 

In short, you cannot coach "it".  You might help speed it up.  You might help someone find a path they otherwise would never have stumbled on.  Greatest, however, is in the player.

 

Greatness in coaching lies in seeing the possible that exists in a player and knowing how to develop it.  An analogy may serve.  A great coach saw the gem stone when others saw a dirty stone and polished it to brilliance.  A lesser coach picked the wrong stone or destroyed the great gem by cutting it wrong.  God, however, made the gem in the first place. 


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GHMANEGER

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Reply with quote  #15 

if someone can dribble good but he can't at least pass solid he is not a good player.

 


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MrSoccer

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Reply with quote  #16 

I think ypu can teach anyone to pass well using either foot.

 

I think when you see a very good over all player who can't it is because he is trying to do something that is beyiond his limits or he waits too long to pass. 

 

Let's say he is fast but when he has the ball he trys to run a little to fast then his pass will be a little off. Slow him down a little get his body more under his control then his passing will be better. Also when he sees someone that is open or is about to becime open make the pass and don't wait.


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GHMANEGER

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Reply with quote  #17 

 to dribble usually you don't need insight like to pass. I think people should learn dribble pass and shot at top speed. it is much more powerfull. what you talked about was lack of insight we see in the selfish player. not the striker who try to make his chances. the selfish player who does not understand it is a team game and try to do anyhing by himself. ther is a window for a player with more insight this window is bigger and last more time. they often can jump from one window to another by very good skills while in tight situation.

good player should have feild awarness which is something the ball hogg is usually don't have. good dribble and good pass can be teached. my first training in football include pass movment and shot. dribble is what my nefew (3 years) do naturally because they don't like to pass(share). when Ill se this at 11 years old, it is mean he has some problem in understanding team game concepts. passing and dribbling are the basic, a solid player should be good at both. 


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Maddog

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Reply with quote  #18 

 mbiyenm:They all pay many never get to play that is the problem. The reason to train is to correct problems found in matches if you never play in a match why should you train? Or Pay?

 

Scoachd; You know it is not just soccer but since this is a soccer forum that is what I will address.
Way too many get worked for the training line and get little playing time, development in the US is all about the team.

 

I stand on my original statement few will ever get to work with the 1 in 1000 that goes to the top of the profession. Even now US has many players in Europe but none at the top of the profession. Lots of journeymen but if you count the almost 30 toiling in Europe and divide that into the number of youth players it is easy to see most that are currently viewed as hot shots will never reach the pinnacle either. They have to have the natural ability and drive to make it in the profession, not so in college. BIG DIFFERENCE

mbiyenm

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Reply with quote  #19 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddog

 mbiyenm:They all pay many never get to play that is the problem. The reason to train is to correct problems found in matches if you never play in a match why should you train? Or Pay?...

Yup.

 

tericson

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Reply with quote  #20 

Quote:
but at no point should we ever expect johnny to be able to do what billy is a natural at. if john terry hadn't been groomed as a defensive player, he wouldn't be the rock of chelsea's defense right now

 

I agree.  I wasn't stating that every player should turn into a Ronaldo. I was simply stating that everyone should be trained in the basics of taking players on 1v1. That means that even at low levels those players should be able to on occasion feel comfortable with the ball versus players of like ablilities. 

 

 

Quote:

We all watch a lot of pro soccer right.

 

Can everyone playing really beat people 1 v 1 on their own? No, but they can still play professionally.They just need help from team mates to beat people.

 

I don't think I've ever seen ANY professional league where the players didn't take on their opponent on occasion. Sure, some do it more than others but really.... its kind of silly to think that a professional player exists that passes it every time he gets it.

 

I would also say that those defenders that pass the ball out of the back don't do it because of a lack of 1v1 skill but more so because it's a smarter play. They might not have as much ability at it as a striker but at the same time when they do run at a striker, he won't have as much defensive ablity as the defender.

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