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TomK

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Reply with quote  #61 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thoughtsoc

....

It is the rather idiosyncratic nature of the thought process that would make me very surprised if someone else somewhere has actually used the game in this fashion, with these dimensions and rules.  If someone states they have, I wouldn't immediately accuse them of lying.  I don't think most people risk lying at a soccer forum.  But I would want further clarification:

 

Most people do not think that the precise dimensions are relevant.  If someone uses a grid of stacked boxes of 10 yards, then I change them to 12 yards, this is not an innovation.  The same is true if 5,8, 12, or 15 yard boxes were used in the grid.  The format that I remember used 3 boxes rather than 5 and did not include the two "safe" boxes.  That is a change but IMO, it is still a variant, not a "new" drill.

Quote:

 

1) Are you sure you clearly understand the game as I use it?  Just to be sure, could you put back to me in your own words how my game works?

 

2)  Now, could you tell me exactly how your game works so that we can assess how close the games really are?

No and No.  I still think the fundamental idea, using stacked boxes with a defender in each area, is close enough that most people would consider these to be the same drill with variations, not different drills.  Both the concept and purpose are the same.  The details are just that, details, which can be varied as needed.

 

Quote:

3) Where did you learn your game?  Who taught it to you?  Is it possible that we can trace this down to some book or something?  Is it even possible that it could be traced back to me, as I've been using the game since 1995 and other people who now are coaching have learned it from me?

I don't rememember.  In my case, it was probably in the 1990s by the Alabama DOC.

 

GACoach says that his coach used it in 1978, therefore it could not be traced back to you.    Unless time travel is involved.   Several coaches have indicated that they used it before 1995 as well.

 

Quote:

 I'd be amazed, but I realize it's possible.

 

I am amazed.

thoughtsoc

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Reply with quote  #62 

No and No. I still think the fundamental idea, using stacked boxes with a defender in each area, is close enough that most people would consider these to be the same drill with variations, not different drills. Both the concept and purpose are the same. The details are just that, details, which can be varied as needed.

Obviously, there are going to be many, many different activities that involve dribbling past a defender.  There will be some, but not as many, that involve dribbling past two defenders.  All these activities can no doubt be compared and contrasted with Run the Gauntlet.  If they're identical to Run the Gauntlet, we've established an example where two rather idiosyncratic activities arose in different places independently (assuming I'm not lieing, and that I didn't really steal it from someone else or learn it somewhere).  That's amazing to me, but certainly possible, for it's a very good activity.

 

If they're not identical, we'd have to pinpoint the ways in which they're different.  Then we could determine which differences were minor (a twelve paces long zone instead of a ten paces long zone, for example) and which were more significant (not confining the defenders to a zone, for example).

 

We'd also have to determine whether or not the person describing the other activity was engaging in the activity sometimes termed "Russ bashing."  In this activity, the targeted person is perceived as marketing something, and is therefore open game for insults, derision, etc., even if this involves framing things in a way that stretches the truth.  Which is not to be confused with lieing.  In this case, any activity that involves dribbling past a defender is likely to be described as identical to Run the Gauntlet.

TomK

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Reply with quote  #63 

 

We don't have to determine anything.  We know that numerous people have looked at the description of "Run the Gauntlet" and decided that they had used something close enough to it that they consider it to be the essentially the same thing.   Individually, they made that determination and that is extremely strong evidence that the concept preceded your purported "invention".

 

I did not mention "confining the defender to a zone" but I agree that it is part of the concept, and it is part of the drills that I am familiar with.  I would bet big bucks that it is part of the drills that others have mentioned.  No one would claim that "any activity that involves dribbling past a defender is likely to be described as identical to Run the Gauntlet".  Making that statement is most definitely "framing things in a way that stretches the truth"!

 

(BTW, it's "lying", not "lieing".)

thoughtsoc

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Reply with quote  #64 

We don't have to determine anything. We know that numerous people have looked at the description of "Run the Gauntlet" and decided that they had used something close enough to it that they consider it to be the essentially the same thing. Individually, they made that determination and that is extremely strong evidence that the concept preceded your purported "invention".

Here's what I mean.  We're involved in a discussion about how to classify Run the Gauntlet.  Is it:

 

A) A unique activity, never before used by soccer coaches until Russ Carrington began using it.

 

B) An activity identical to what at least one other coach has used, but with a different name, because Russ Carrington pilfered it, renamed it, and claimed invention of it

 

C) An activity identical to what at least one other coach has used, but which both these coaches stumbled upon independent of each other.

 

D) An activity with varying degrees of similarity to other activities which other coaches have used.

 

If it fits in Category C, I'll be shocked but am open to the proof.  The key term here is "identical", which could be expanded to "almost identical".  We'd still have to clarify what we meant by these terms, though. 

 

My guess is that it best fits in Category D, which is separated from Category A only by our definitions of "varying degrees of similarity" and "unique".

 

We must always remember the interpersonal background of the discussion, however.  Due to the unfortunate reality of "Russ bashing", which others here freely admit to engaging in, we should beware of people implying the activity fits in Category B or C when their evidence suggests more of a Category D fit.  We'd also have to be sure these people actually understood how Run the Gauntlet is run.  It's not easy to fully understand an activity just be looking at rather sketchy diagrams (sorry, CB) on this forum.  This point could easily be proven if we were all in the same place.  "Okay, set up Run the Gauntlet for me, and show me how it works. Oops, not quite."

 

And of course, we could go through this same tedious process with each activity, which I would guess nobody but me is up for! 

ErikB

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Reply with quote  #65 

Russ-

 

What is really amazing is how we need to provide you with ironclad proof of our experience yet you expect everyone else to believe your experiences on your word alone.  Not only that, you now add the added burden on every question of whether those speaking are opposed to your ideas.  Does that make people more prone to lying, when they don't agree with you?

 

Everything you have said about this particular exercise has been disputed as being not unique yet you insist that it must be, because you thought of it?  I've thought of some pretty cool exercises/drills in my time and the more I read and talk to people, the more I realize someone else has already done the same thing.  But I'm sure you won't take my word for it because I haven't declared myself pro-Russ.

 

Oh, the answer to your question above is C and I didn't develop it myself but borrowed it from someone else.

 

Erik

CB

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Reply with quote  #66 

I'll take a stab at this one Russ.  Yes, you conciously or unconciously stole the idea from somebody else.  It is not your unique drilll.  It also was one of the first soccer drills I heard about when I first started coaching 15 years ago.

Scotsoc

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Reply with quote  #67 

Bob, how am I doing?

 

 

 

 


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MrSoccer

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Reply with quote  #68 

I have been using  grids in taking on defenders in every other grid for years and years before thoughtful ever thought of it for sure. I use it to get backs with the ball to take people on when the defenders are coming from different angles in every other grid. Beat a player in a grid and make it to the free grid then take on another player in the next grid. It creates space for team mates in real games. Girls should take on players a lot more then they do now.

 

I used freeze play before I ever learned it in a coachong cource. Maybe I invented it. I just know the players can see a problem as it happens and you can make immediate coaching points as it happened of you freeze play. If you wait to play stops even 5 minutes after. The player can't see what you are talking about after the fact.


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coachkev

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Reply with quote  #69 

Er...I just remembered.

Didnt the TV shows GLADIATORS use this format in the mid 90's??. I thought it was copyright then??

AFB

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Reply with quote  #70 

Willie,

 

Not so good.

 

How about this:

 

Being concerned about increasing exhibitions of paranoia and delusional rants, Russ was convinced by his probation officer to see a physiatrist.  When Russ was settled comfortably on the couch, the physiatrist began his therapy session, "I'm not aware of your problem," the doctor said. "So perhaps, you should start at the very beginning."

"Of course." replied Russ. "In the beginning, I created the Heavens and the Earth.  Before me no one had thought of such a thing.  If anyone did it was not the same Heaven and Earth ..."

 


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MrSoccer

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Reply with quote  #71 

"Didnt the TV shows GLADIATORS use this format in the mid 90's??. I thought it was copyright then??"

 

I thought they did that in the 80's not the 90's


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Reply with quote  #72 
The best definition of a good coach that I ever heard.
"A good coach is like a thief, he steals from everyone and everywhere."
Who said this none other than Rhinus Michels.
Enough said.
Scotsoc

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Reply with quote  #73 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSoccer

"Didnt the TV shows GLADIATORS use this format in the mid 90's??. I thought it was copyright then??"

 

I thought they did that in the 80's not the 90's

 

No, that was the US Gladiators.  Kev is talking about the UK gladiators which he invented.

 

 


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Scotsoc

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Reply with quote  #74 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TomK

Most people do not think that the precise dimensions are relevant.  If someone uses a grid of stacked boxes of 10 yards, then I change them to 12 yards, this is not an innovation.  The same is true if 5,8, 12, or 15 yard boxes were used in the grid.  The format that I remember used 3 boxes rather than 5 and did not include the two "safe" boxes.  That is a change but IMO, it is still a variant, not a "new" drill.

 

Hmmm Tom, I though the whole idea of being flexible with regard to grid size was to make the exercise ability/age appropriatte.  Now if I'm reading you correctly the reason we may change the grid size is so that we can invent a new exercise.  Educational!

 

 


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MikeS

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Reply with quote  #75 

Has soccer been patented yet?


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JimN

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Reply with quote  #76 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitness4soccer
The best definition of a good coach that I ever heard.
"A good coach is like a thief, he steals from everyone and everywhere."
Who said this none other than Rhinus Michels.
Enough said.


Welcome f4s - it is Rinus, no H.  However, it is hardly his original thought - it has been said about architecture, interior design, graphic design, just about anything you can think of where quality ideas are at a premium.



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JimN

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Reply with quote  #77 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeS

Has soccer been patented yet?



buen idea Miguel

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coachkev

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Reply with quote  #78 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotsoc

No, that was the US Gladiators.  Kev is talking about the UK gladiators which he invented. 

Willie,

AT least the UK Gladiators were better looking than the Overgrown Hobbits with Kilts on that Jockland offered.

 

I mean, isnt it true that most Scots look like a cross between SUPERGRAN & RAB C NESBIT ( and thats just the WOMEN )

 

P.S. I didnt invent them, I nicked the idea from Russ's Psychiatrist.

I went to him and said " I keep seeing little Scotsmen crawl out from under my bed". He told me it would cost $1,000 of Dollars to cure. I said "F**k that and I went home and sawed the legs off the bed!!

thoughtsoc

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Reply with quote  #79 

I'll take a stab at this one Russ.  Yes, you conciously or unconciously stole the idea from somebody else.  It is not your unique drilll.  It also was one of the first soccer drills I heard about when I first started coaching 15 years ago.

 

Sorry, CB, but I can't agree with you on this one.   I remember too clearly the moment I started using this.  Nor do I am I convinced that you've used the activity exactly as I do.  You'd have to clarify for me the exact activity you used and the ways it was different from mine.  The formulation of the rules is also an issue.  When writing the book, I had to formulate clear rules as succinctly as possible.  Do you believe that someone else has done this before me for this particular activity?  If so, they must be in writing somewhere.  If not, how could the game be passed on from coach to coach in some identical fashion?  Word of mouth?  It's just too incredible for me to believe, so I'll have to remain a Doubting Thomas on this one.  As I've said, I acknowledge it's possible.  But extremely unlikely.

 

Also, can you describe the variations you have used with this activity?

 

Another activity is Soccer Volley.  This one I clearly did not invent. Coaches for ages have been using some version of this, but calling it Soccer Tennis and various other names.  My particular rules are probably unique, though. 

thoughtsoc

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Reply with quote  #80 

For another activity to be considered identical to Run the Gauntlet, the key features would be: two defenders to dribble past, each confined to a defensive zone, a short line of players trying to dribble through to accumulate points, a neutral zone in the middle.  If you can provide some other form of proof other than, "Don't you believe me?", then I'll believe you.  Otherwise, I'll remain unconvinced.  After all, my reports of direct experience have often been met with scepticism.

 

So, let's assume for the sake of argument that Run the Gauntlet, for whatever reason, is an activity for which some nearly identical activity existed prior to my use of it.  The activity would then be grouped with other activities I've used which are definitely not my own invention, or which are so obvious that someone somewhere has surely used them before.  Other examples are Alligator River, Soccer Volley, and the scrimmage One Time.  The Chest Trap Shot and volley Shot are also obvious examples.

 

The question remains whether some, even one of my activities are most definitely unique inventions.  I mention Space Cowboy as the activity least likely to have been used anywhere at any time.  Air Control and Bombs Away are also good candidates, as are the Touch It Back rule (no first touches forward) and the Side to Side Scrimmage.  Keep in mind that some of these activities have already been ridiculed.  It's hard to ridicule an activity in one breath, then claim it was pilfered in the next.  "If it's good, Russ must have pilfered it; If it's bad, Russ must have invented it from his own warped mind." I suppose that to claim the activity was pilfered, you'd first have to read the rules for the darn thing to the point where you really understood it.

 

And now I must make a confession.  I didn't really invent the Triangle Three.  I pilfered it from a professional coach I once knew.

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