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everything

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Reply with quote  #1 
Probably a simple question but I need to ask. Can you describe the differences in using moves or feints for midfielders vs forwards?

- similar need for space creation
- use far fewer moves as forward to make room for shot
- forward needs range of finishing while midfielder needs range of passing

How should one train the overlapping technical skillet vs the distinct skill set including tactics to be quite good at both? Why is it Messi is so good at both yet some strikers would be bad at midfield and some midfielders cannot play forward so well, when some of the technical skillset (a move to create space followed by a kick that is pass or shot) seems overlapping? Is much of the difference mental and tactical (360 deg vision vs laser, predatory focus, etc)? How do you train efficiently for both? It's hard to name great examples besides Messi
coachkev

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Reply with quote  #2 

The BIG difference is what do you want to DO with the ball AFTER the feint OR move?

The forward should always be thinking the SHOT is next, whereas the midfielder has the first option to PASS

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Reply with quote  #3 
That's what I thought, thanks Coachkev. Why do I get the feeling that, for example, Suarez cannot play midfielder and Iniesta cannot play forward at the world class level they are at in their normal positions? Whereas for some reason Messi can use the same feints then pass or shoot with the same accuracy.

Other than his genius, is it because it's not normal to play someone in essentially two positions in one game so most players will stick to their specialty? However If you are training young players, why can they not learn move+shoot and move+pass about equally well? Do they at first, then they "forget" one somewhat later because their specialty requires the main skillset? When Rooney switched to AM, he "lost" some forward capabilities? Whereas Ozil is the EPL assist master, can finish well, but doesn't mainly because he is far away and paid to create not finish? Can he stay at top level finishing ability, too? Finally aren't AMs in a one striker system supposed to have both skill sets? In the Arsenal example, what % of goals should ideally come from AMs vs the ST? I know they don't play "off the shoulder" or as a large target or hold up man but aside from that...
coachkev

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Reply with quote  #4 

You dont pay for a car mechanic to fix your car and then allow a painter & decorator to have a try do you?
Messi's unique in that he has abnormally short legs for the size of his torso. This allows him to use his lower sense of gravity to move his body faster than normal because balance is lower to the ground.
With most players, their 'touch' with both feet is simply not there so they are 'anchored' to their dominant foot to get a shot in whereas Messi is totally comfortable with either foot but prefers one to the other.

What is missing from a majority of real strikers is the ability to compose themselves at that prime moment to make and carry out the right decision.....as the saying goes...."Have your HEART in the Oven and your HEAD in the fridge"

Finishing is exactly that....finishing. How the ball goes over the line is immaterial to the true goalscorer....but alas, most want to score 'Hollywood' goals, you know, the spectacular ones where they either go like the preverbial bullet or its after a mazy dribble beating 5 or 6 opponents.

This is why Ajax operated a system in the early 80's of only recruiting the BEST young strikers throughout Europe....NO defenders....NO midfield players...JUST strikers. Their philosophy was that they kept the best ones STILL as strikers but repositioned the next best into midfield and then finally as defenders. This meant that the 433 system they employed through the club would be comprised totally of players in ANY position who could score just as well as the strikers.

 

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Reply with quote  #5 
What happened to this Ajax idea and practice after that? I guess total football evolved. Did it account for body type like taller bigger center backs, faster wing backs?

How about my question on attacking mids as primary scorers (as in Arsenal case)? That is still an evolution of the Ajax kind of idea? They are all cross between "pure" forward and mid, though some (Ozil) lean more toward creator and others (Sanchez) lean more toward finisher? So then you still need a tall strong striker?

On this tangent, Wenger prefers AMs to the detriment of defensive balance according to many but it's so easy to agree with this philosophy.
Goal150

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Reply with quote  #6 
Moves breakdown into 3 categories: stops and starts, attacking moves, 270s and change of direction moves. In my book, all players should be proficient in all 3 and all be decent/excellent 1v1 players. 

They have all different functions: stops and starts to create a yard or two of space against a defender on your hip, attacking moves to get behind (or wide) of a defender you are face to face with, change of direction (90 or 180) is self explanatory and 270s can be used to turn to attack, turn to possess. 

HOw to train it? Early on, train all of it because you don't know how a young player will evolve and what position he will end up playing. Our club is an interesting case study in this because at early ages we train everyone like they will be an attacker, we get into the teens and the players that have been with us start to develop their identity. We get kids who are 6 foot tall, muscular but as deft as any slight striker you've seen. Who wouldn't love a hard tackling kid to be able to handle the ball well too? Our defenders are better as midfielders than most midfielders on other teams—you start being able to really play total football. 

there are lots of examples: iniesta, Ronaldo, Hazard, Rooney (a few years back)
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Reply with quote  #7 
Thanks Goal. I can see this evolution of total football to some extent with wingers converted to wing backs, big strikers or DMs converted to center backs. If that is what your teams do Id love to watch them. We tried to do this using the advice here before I "retired". Messi is really an AM imo but he is the best finisher and dribbler on the planet on top of his world class skills at mid. Neymar is very close.

One thing I wonder about is why you specifically call out 270s in your turns and changes of direction category of moves: is it shorthand for everything from 90-360? Or is there a more specific reason the turn should be 270? Receive square pass and try to turn away from pressure all the way around and release vertical ball? This one is more for mids than forwards (I guess
- center forward ideally needs first touch to the exact spot for second touch to shoot and the rest of the repertoire is relatively plan B
- winger more priority on attacking moves
- center mid more 270s)?
coachkev

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Reply with quote  #8 

You can easily get bogged down assessing/developing/testing these 'attributes' but it ALL comes down to just one basic premis;

"The QUALITY and EFFECTIVENESS of the DECISION MAKING"

There are literally millions of players out there who have these abilities but fail miserably time and time again because their decision making is wrong - and their coaches have been so obsessed with them acquiring the PHYSICAL attributes that they underdevelop their decision making.

I spend lots of times with kids and if you give them challenges they will normally go for them (even outside training).
Its the GAME that separates them when they are assessed on whether they performed the skill (use of technique/s at the right moment correctly) that were successful in moving on an attack.

This is why the OODA Loop thread has reaffirmed my ideas that players are comfortable with process but it also leaves room for creativity - that 'difference' that turns the ordinary into the extraordinary.

Goal150

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
Originally Posted by everything
Thanks Goal. I can see this evolution of total football to some extent with wingers converted to wing backs, big strikers or DMs converted to center backs. If that is what your teams do Id love to watch them. We tried to do this using the advice here before I "retired". Messi is really an AM imo but he is the best finisher and dribbler on the planet on top of his world class skills at mid. Neymar is very close. One thing I wonder about is why you specifically call out 270s in your turns and changes of direction category of moves: is it shorthand for everything from 90-360? Or is there a more specific reason the turn should be 270? Receive square pass and try to turn away from pressure all the way around and release vertical ball? This one is more for mids than forwards (I guess - center forward ideally needs first touch to the exact spot for second touch to shoot and the rest of the repertoire is relatively plan B - winger more priority on attacking moves - center mid more 270s)?


270s are special change of direction moves—more like a double change of direction. For example, one is a cruyff turn but add an outside cut to the end. A lot of defenders know a cruyff turn, but add that outside cut and you can burst past an unsuspecting defender. It just adds another layer to "player dynamism"—not for a specific purpose necessarily as you described above. 

We don't really convert players into other positions per se, it can happen on the fly in the game or as a tactical or substitution change. My current center back could probably be a center mid or striker on most teams but he's not better than my striker or center mid. 
everything

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Reply with quote  #10 
Ah thanks a lot for all the clarifications. That all makes sense to me now. One reason I ask my question is that one of my (very rec) teams asked me to play forward. It's weird to me from a decision and a technical view because I usually want to pass first and not take or create a smaller half space to shoot first. Also I should practice and try take on moves more. It takes getting used to, getting into a different mood and mindset and taking different responsibility. In contrast our better forwards do this stuff well and tend to pass less (sometimes not good).

The other reason I ask is trying to understand certain players' approach and decisions. I see 270s a lot now LOL. A lot of times I'm trying to follow Messi or Neymar's decision process when they decide to dribble or pass. It's not so clear to me because it doesn't necessarily seem numbers or space based especially with Messi. He might see 3 defenders but lots of space and go for the dribble. Normal mortals don't do that. It appears he has no options and he makes them out of nothing.
coachkev

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Reply with quote  #11 

everything,
Funnily enough I went the opposite way.
Ever since I began kicking a ball at 3 or 4, I always wanted to score goals, I played as a striker for the school teams, club team, district, county (equivalent of State), then pro club.

I never really thought about playing anywhere else only when mucking around with my mates at school.
I then got sent off for having a disagreement with a centre back which resulted in him losing some blood.
This meant that my manager (head coach) stated I would never be picked to play as a striker again.
Six months and a hell of a lot of hard work, I WAS selected to play again, but in midfield.
Oddly when I started, I found it easy to make the passes the strikers WANTED and after the first one, the receiver scored and shouted to me "That was QUALITY Kev"......wow!!......I had never said thanks once when I played as the striker and it was a big lesson I learned.
I could also tackle without fear of being booked and I could also go forward and shoot with ease as I already had that in my locker.

I think that IF you allow negative stuff into the space between your ears, then it doesnt leave enough room for the stuff that is absolutely vital to be able to perform in the new role.

MrSoccer

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Reply with quote  #12 
Strikers need a quick shot like right after a cryuff move. Or some other Mia direction move.They don't shoot most of the time. They work on finishing that is done inside the 18. Do something to get the keeper to move left or right when the keeper moves finish where he left or pass to a team mate where he left. Another forward or a inside mid. Half scissors.

Inside mid shoots out side the 18 at least 3 times a game. Inside mid moves up in the flow after he makes a pass. What ne never wants to do is be in front of a cross. Do that your team is suspectible to a counter attack starting from your teams cross or corner kick.
Mid work on pull backs and full scissors to get more time.

You need more time for a longer shot from a mid. Since your shooting from less congested space you should have more time. Mid can also shoot after the cryuff watch Donadoni play.

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everything

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thanks again for these tips. Coachkev, that's not only a great story to read and enjoy, but it really illustrates why people should learn striker first.

MrSoccer, all, I think I can work on getting the shot or finish move off faster (kind of more on the half beat than on the beat), but trying to feint a defender AND getting the keeper to move is too advanced for me for now. Going to have to ask about this later...
Goal150

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Reply with quote  #14 
At most levels you don't need to worry about the keeper—straight on put it to the outer 3-4 feet of the goal, from an angle develop your ability to finish inside the far post. 

At the most basic level, just get out of the habit of shooting indiscriminately at goal—that's not enough. 
coachkev

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Reply with quote  #15 

For shooting targets, I always get strikers to ask the GKs what are the hardest shots for them to face.
Most if not all GKs will say they love 10 or 2 shots (10 o'clock & 2 o'clock) first as they can deflect them safe if they cannot catch it.
Next would be 9 to 3 oclock (lateral dives)
Then 11,12 & 1 oclock (tip over the bar ones)

The shots they hate (in order of hatred);
*Low and fast across the goal
*Low hard between planted feet
*Topped shots (where there is top spin on the ball which bounces just in front of them
*1v1's diagonally (because of the threat of the chip)
*Through a crowded penalty area

So when you run finishing sessions, get your players to practice shots in the order that GKs hate most.

If players want to hit their shots hard, I tell them to aim for the GKs ears or knees (that way even if they are slightly off target they will STILL be on goal)


 

 

Goal150

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Reply with quote  #16 
Teaching players to basically shoot at the keeper?
coachkev

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Reply with quote  #17 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goal150
Teaching players to basically shoot at the keeper?

No, directing it AT the keeper is a kind of failsafe for those players who can't help smashing the ball as hard as they can.
I get players to focus on what the opposing keeper DOESN'T want them to do and then try and do exactly that.

Just to lighten it a bit, I tell players that from now on they will ALWAYS be successful with their shots as long as they say whatever the ball hits THATS what they were AIMING for!! [biggrin]

everything

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goal150
 

At the most basic level, just get out of the habit of shooting indiscriminately at goal—that's not enough. 


Man oh man. When I actually aim at a specific spot and the ball actually does go there, it takes me by complete (pleasant) surprise. Mostly that I had the mental calm. How many days/successes do I need to make good aim my new habit? 21? [biggrin]

It's funny and pathetic but seriously I do see how one should be able to get into the new habit. It's 99% a mental "self-re-programming" process like almost any other new habit.  
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